When times are tough, it can be a challenge to feel hopeful. What if we thought of hope as an abiding state of being rather than a future looking activity?
In this final episode of the season, I’m in conversation with Donna Love Huling about how we can tend to our hopefulness even in challenging times. We explore the difference between hope and optimism, the power of positivity habits and how acceptance and surrender are keys embracing hope in our daily lives.
A full transcript is posted at the bottom of this page if you prefer to read.
[Bio] Donna Love Huling
Donna Love Huling has worked in the healing arts for over 40 years; first as a licensed professional counselor and later studying spiritual practices, indigenous studies and energetic and shamanic healing.
Donna’s practice focuses on guiding people to reconnect to the truth of their hearts. Using her background in the indigenous teachings of the Native American Medicine Wheel and the Pachakuti Mesa, she teaches individuals from diverse backgrounds and viewpoints, the way of walking ancestral wisdom in a modern day world.
Donna also leads a weekly women’s group and teaches the Soul Passages program via Zoom Donna makes her home in Atlanta, Georgia but leads small groups on spiritual journeys to Tuscany each year.
She treasures time with her beloved family, friends and her most doted on Golden Retriever, Lucy.
Contact Donna for more info about her work and her Coming To Your Senses adventures to Tuscany.
[Blog] Principles for Savouring the Day
If you are interested in the principles that help us savour the day no matter what they day brings, this blog outlines them using some beautiful quotes.
Scroll on down to the comments section and share your thoughts….
What brings you hope?
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CREDITS: The Being & The Doing podcast is produced by Neela Bell. Voiceovers by Jason Harris. Music is GoodMorning Sunshine by Yoav Alyagon and Firefly by Scott Buckley.
Full Show Transcript
Intro: Welcome to The Being & The Doing, a podcast about wellbeing and the practices that help us have more calm, focus, purpose, and presence in our busy lives. Here’s your host, author, and life coach, Laurel Vespi.
Laurel: Hello, lovey ones, welcome to this episode of The Being & The Doing. This is actually the last episode of this season. We’re going to go into a little hiatus and I’m happy about the topic to wind up this season. As you know, we’ve been exploring the different principles that help us savor the day, help us go with the flow of life, the ups and the downs, and today we’re going to dive into the principle of Hope Audaciously. And the reason why I think that is a great place to end this season is it’s not only about the kind of practices and habits and routines that we have that allow us to either be more mindful about our day or manage whatever the challenges that may show up in the day or in our lives but it really is about mindset.
Regardless of whether it’s a day that’s going great or a day that’s going sideways, mindset plays such an important role in how it is that we’re able to manage that flow, the up and the downs of life. And so this principle of hoping audaciously is I think a timely conversation and I’m so excited to have this guest to wrap up this season. I met this amazingly delightful woman back in 2008 in the countryside in Tuscany where my husband and I, and her husband, and she were taking part in a week of poetry and hiking and walking and eating Italian food with David Whyte. And it was just instantaneous love when we met these people. And so, I’m so thrilled to have her here, to share her perspectives and thoughts, and be in conversation around this idea of hoping audaciously.
So let me introduce her to you. Donna has worked in the healing arts for over 40 years; first as a licensed professional counselor and later, studying spiritual practices, indigenous studies and energetic, and shamanic healing. Donna practice focuses on guiding people to reconnect to the truth of their hearts using her background in the indigenous teachings of the Native American medicine wheel and the Pachakuti Mesa – I hope I said that right, Donna. She teaches individuals from diverse backgrounds and viewpoints, the way of walking ancestral wisdom in a modern-day world. Donna also leads a weekly women’s group and teaches the soul passages program via Zoom. She makes her home in Atlanta, Georgia, but she also leads a small group on a spiritual journey to Tuscany every year or certainly did that before COVID postponed those trips. She says that she treasures time with her beloved family, her friends, and her most doted on golden retriever, Lucy. Donna, I am so pleased and thrilled to have you here in conversation on The Being & The Doing.
Donna: Thank you. Thank you so much, Laurel. You took me right back to Tuscany. My goodness! Wasn’t that just such a beautiful karmic intersection of the four of us? What a joy.
Laurel: It was. It was. We just had the best time. Was that really the inspiration for your trips to Tuscany then as you began taking groups to Tuscany, did it happen after that?
Donna: Absolutely. Yes, that was the planting of the seed in my mind that I could do that as well. And of course my trips are a little different than David Whyte’s, but still, sort of in that theme of a spiritual journey; whereas, his revolves around poetry and a lot of walking as we both remember.
Laurel: And a lot of food and a lot of wine.
Donna: Yes, yes. Mine sort of revolves around the senses. And so what better place in Tuscany for us to explore our senses? So yes, that was the seed planting and that was in 2008, as you mentioned before. And then my first trip did not actually manifest my first group until 2012. That was the gestation process. And it’s been a happy, happy thing and hopefully, we’ll do it again as soon as it opens up.
Laurel: Yeah. And so, you know, as I segue into our topic for today, hopefully, it will open back up. I am quite hopeful and optimistic that that will happen for people to be able to do that. So this idea of hoping audaciously does encompass you know, the idea of hope and what hope means and how that shows up in our lives. But it also pulls in, you know, optimism and positivity. So let’s start here. What do you see as the difference between hope and optimism or do you see a difference?
Donna: I basically think hope is an optimistic belief that good things are going to happen; that the desire for things to turn out better or looking forward with excited anticipation, even a new surge of energy. So I do think that optimism and hope kind of go hand in hand.
Laurel: Yeah. I do think they go hand in hand and there is a distinction there but it feels like it’s almost hard to put your finger on it exactly. I don’t know, for me, hope seems to be that idea that the, as you said, that belief that we have the ability to withstand whatever’s happening, that things will work out and optimistic is almost like a focus or where we direct our attention to – the idea of emphasizing the good or looking for the pathway to make things turn out. Because especially in these times that we find ourselves in, I find myself saying sometimes that I’m hopeful, but not necessarily optimistic that, you know, I have a belief that they’ll work out, but I don’t necessarily feel optimistic about how that’s going to happen.
Donna: I view hope sometimes as an unattached prayer.
Laurel: Unattached, meaning?
Donna: We don’t know how it’s going to turn out. And if we have some sort of form around how we want that to turn out, it is attached to how we want it to be. And so if it is truly a prayer, if we are hoping things will be better, if we’re anticipating some new energy be infused into a current situation or circumstance, we also have to surrender the outcome of it because who are we to know what the best outcome is going to be?
Laurel: Right. Which is that part of hope, that in hope, there is this belief in our capacity to be able to manage whatever it is that is going to happen. That hope is about our ability as human beings to accept what is happening or what might happen and still trust that we’re going to be okay in that, whatever it is that turns out to be.
Donna: Exactly. I couldn’t agree more. I think the acceptance piece of being hopeful is so critical. In fact, accepting what currently is, allows hope to meet us where we are. And so when we can say, this is how it is now, I totally accept it, which means I’m not resisting it, there’s no push-pull there. So we’re accepting what is, then hope can join us in that moment of acceptance and then allow for a better outcome to occur. So energetically even accepting what is, keeps our energy present and grounded the resisting, and just hoping without accepting sort of throws our energy into the future. Does that make sense?
Laurel: Well, it does. And I think that maybe for some listeners that becomes a challenging idea. The idea of accepting what is, which taps into one of the other ‘savour the day’ principles about controlling what you can. I think for some people that idea of accepting what is, I want to say it’s almost like a giving in but not in a good way, and accepting what is, is about surrender. It’s about this is what is, so let’s not resist it because no amount of resisting is going to change what is. I think that can be a challenging concept for people because we’re taught to not, you know, that if something isn’t what we want, then we should change it. We shouldn’t quote-unquote accept it.
Donna: Well, I agree, but I also think what you said is true. In fact, we could call them the three dear friends, if we wanted to: hope, trust, and surrender. I think the three of those work together in such a beautiful way that our hopefulness is a manner of speaking. We are trusting when we’re hoping and then also surrendering. So surrendering is probably another one of those words that people struggle with from time to time, because they feel like they are giving up, but surrendering is actually such a peaceful acceptance of what is in order. Like I said before, hope can meet us in that place of just letting go, surrendering to what is in order to be hopeful and trusting about what can be
Laurel: Right. Yeah. There is that distinction of, in surrender when we surrender and accept what is that doesn’t necessarily mean that we don’t make choices that can influence or impact on what is. It’s not this black and white thing: ‘Oh, no, I’ve surrendered, therefore I throw my hands up and I’m just okay with what’s happening. I’ve just accepted what’s happening.’
Donna: Right. That’s exactly right.
Laurel: Yeah. Interesting rabbit hole going down there.
Donna: You know, I think what happens is sometimes if we can fully accept what’s happening, we can work with the parts of us that don’t want to accept what’s happening. So what part of me is not accepting of what’s happening in this moment? Most of the time it’s our minds. Our minds are struggling with what is, and our minds are wanting things to be different, and they’re not liking it. You know, our little two-year-old is digging the heels in and stomping around like, this is not the way I want it to be, but guess what – it is. And so the greater part of us perhaps can look at what part of me is not accepting of this. And, you know, in that, and even if it’s our emotions, we can go into each of those parts of who we are and understand what is it that’s keeping me attached to wanting it to be different. Or what emotion is coming up that is keeps separating me from being more trusting and surrendering into this is how it is right now and I’m hopeful for greater, better things. And also we can be a part of that, can’t we? We can tend our hopefulness.
Laurel: Yeah. It’s interesting that you referenced both, our thinking mind, which is, you know, kind of a genius and a relentless master all at the same time in the ways that we can allow our thinking mind to really run rough shot over whatever is happening. But the idea of that acceptance of emotions or surrendering to emotion, again, I think that for some listeners that might be a scary or an uncomfortable place. But the more that we accept what is in terms of right now, this is what’s here and present as emotion and allow it to be there and know that they’re not permanent. Emotions are just things that flow through us and if we can just surrender to it, know that yes, it might be an uncomfortable emotion but the more that we just allow ourselves to sit with that, and then it will flow through and something else will come along behind it.
Donna: That’s so true. And when we are able to practice that, we become calmer because we are allowing what is just to flow through us, as you said, and it leaves us more grounded. It leaves our capacities stronger to withstand life. Life is occurring all the time, and the more we resist what life is bringing us, the more we feel insecure and unstable. And so, when we can just allow these thoughts and these emotions to flow through us, we can acknowledge them; just recognizing them for what they are and in that, there is such solidity. We feel so grounded, we feel rooted, we feel capable. And from that place, the hoping, the hopefulness becomes a spiritual practice. It’s not just positive thinking, it’s not just wishful thinking, but it’s really from the soul and from the heart at that point.
Laurel: Right. That hope is grounded in a worldview, some bigger worldview that you’re holding; whether that may be as one that flows out of a religious tradition, but also maybe not. But it’s grounded in that bigger worldview that you hold about what you believe about life and about the reason why we’re here and all of that conversation, that’s where hope is really rooted.
Donna: Absolutely. It’s as if it’s a mystical hope, isn’t it? Instead of a single focus hope that says, ‘Oh, I hope I get that job.’ Or ‘I hope it doesn’t rain on our beach trip’ you know, that’s sort of a personal hope that’s not for the collective. But a collective hope, a mystical hope is a bigger vision. That is, again, it’s more like a prayer, isn’t it? It’s all-encompassing, it’s an abiding state of the being, so to speak.
Laurel: I love that ‘the abiding state of the being’ because there is that, you know, call it our day-to-day hopefulness or even as we think of, you know, positivity. I mean, just even the idea of positivity practices or optimism. I think people can maybe miss the point a little bit about what that is about. Because being optimistic or having positivity practices, isn’t about just slapping that perpetual smile on your face, that everything is great all of the time. Isn’t it wonderful! I’ll date myself and, you know, reference that Pollyanna like, yay, you know, all is wonderful. It’s not about that at all. It’s whether we’re talking about positivity habits or we’re talking about optimism or hope it’s about recognizing what is and then how it is that we’re showing up in the face of that particular thing.
Donna: Absolutely. I really love what you said about the difference too. Because I think sometimes the positive thinking, so to speak, like you said, just slapping that positive belief onto something is almost trying to convince ourselves. And it does separate us from truly being and feeling what’s occurring in that moment. It’s more of a mental exercise. We’ve all been going through things, we’ve all done this in the past where we’re really suffering from something, we’re really going through something, but perhaps a well-intended friend just meets us in that place of our suffering with a platitude. And so I don’t know about you, but that’s the last thing I want is a platitude in a moment of suffering. I want someone to meet me in my suffering and just acknowledge that there is suffering there.
Laurel: Yeah. I have a dear friend who had cancer and she was saying that the most unhelpful thing that people were saying to her when she was in the midst of, you know, sort of the depths of the greatest challenges of her treatments, were when people would say things like, Oh, well, everything happens for a reason so, you know, just look for the silver lining. And she was like, that’s not the conversation for right now, even though she is, you know, a very optimistic type of person. No, right now I have to know that it will be okay that there is a hopeful conversation that this will work out. But right now in the mess and the muckiness of it, that, you know, those positive thinking, as you’re saying, platitudes, just don’t really serve us. They don’t serve other people and they certainly don’t serve us when we’re saying them to ourselves.
Donna: I agree. And I think it’s so discounting to the person that is suffering. It’s not honoring of what they’re going through and, again, it’s such a mental exercise, and the person that’s saying it is really trying to escape what they’re feeling. They don’t want to be with what they are feeling. They don’t want to be with us in our suffering. And so, that’s more of a reflection on them that they’re not able to do that for themselves and so, of course, they’re not able to extend that to us. But I really do believe that the more heart-connected way of doing that is just to sit in presence with your friend that is suffering where she knows that you can walk with her at that time in her life. That is the most hopeful thing that can be in that moment of suffering. Isn’t it?
Laurel: So which leads to that question of how can we keep hope or optimism? How do we keep that alive during challenging times? So whether we think about everything that’s gone on during the pandemic, or whether there’s a personal crisis that someone’s experiencing, how do we keep that sense of hope alive during challenging times?
Donna: I think we can be a part of what we’re hoping for. What I mean by that is we can tend to our hopefulness, even in challenging times. I heard this analogy years ago about moving from one area of our lives, into another area. So moving from something that’s very familiar and known into something that’s unfamiliar and unknown, and they equated it to rooms in a house. And they said this analogy was that we’re in one room and this room is familiar. We know this room, we know every aspect of it, but we’re going to be leaving this room. And that room could be a job, it could be a relationship, it could be anything, but we know it is familiar. But in order to leave that and move into another space, another room we have to go down the hallway and the hallway is that place of the unknown. So moving from one place to another, there has to be that space of the unknown and I think that’s also the space of hope. So it can look any way we choose for it to look. It can be spacious and filled with light. You know, we’re traveling through this hallway, going from the known to the unknown. We can choose to make it feel the way that we want it to. Christopher Reeves said one time, once you choose hope, anything is possible.
Laurel: Which also connects back to when you were talking about your three dear friends, that trust becomes such an important ally in that journey down the hallway. Or perhaps the stepping out, crossing the threshold of the familiar right into the hallway. That trust is the thing that also holds us as we begin that journey, you know, trusting in whatever the belief we have about ultimately what’s going to happen. There’s the hope or the trusting of ourselves that we either have what we need in order to journey down the hallway, or we have the resources to ask for help going down the hallway if we don’t feel like we have it. I always am talking with clients about trusting our future selves. So the self that is right in this moment, but the self that is in the next moment and the next one and further down the road, that to have great trust in that future self can handle it either directly or indirectly. And so it seems like that becomes an important ally in the journey down the hallway to the next room.
Donna: Yes, it does. And I’d like to add one other aspect of that is that when we don’t know how to handle it, or we don’t have the resources at hand to stay open and present to what unfolds in that unknown space in the hallway. Because if we are hopeful and we are trusting, as you said, and we surrender to that space, it’s just space, right? It’s the space between knowing and not knowing; the not knowing hasn’t come in yet, but it is unfolding. We can trust that it is unfolding. The sun does come up tomorrow, there’s a platitude for you. But, you know, just in that allowing of help to enter that really reinforces our trust and it also reinforces that we know how to do this. As you said, your future self and our past selves, we know how to do this.
Laurel: Hmm. Yeah, we do. We do. We have so much more capacity than we believe that we have that sometimes when we think, I can’t do it for whatever reason that if we were able to step out of ourselves and take the 30,000-foot view that we have far more skills than we think we have. And we use them in the past, we just sometimes forget that we’ve used them or we don’t realize that actually, I navigated that situation well and whatever skills that I used to navigate that actually also applies here if I just think about it for a moment. It’s skillsets in one area transferred to another area, that you do have the capacity, you can actually manage whatever it is that’s going to come next. Or it’s that optimistic belief that, whatever it is, I can do this in some fashion or another.
Donna: That is tending our hopefulness, isn’t it? I love what you just said about, you’re just remembering that you have done this before, that you have it within you and you have the capacity. It’s remembering that. But the tending, that’s, I think, also what Christopher Reeves was talking about once you choose hope, anything is possible. I think ‘choosing’ is a piece of this puzzle and that’s what we’re tending. That is how we are being a part of what we’re hoping for. We’re staying open, we’re staying mindful, we’re paying attention. We’re being grateful for every step along the hallway. And so there is some tending there that keeps us moving forward in our hopefulness.
Laurel: So, you just named a number of things there, Donna, in this idea of tending to your hopefulness. I think that that’s likely an intriguing idea or concept for listeners. Okay, how do I tend my hopefulness? You said the first part is ‘choosing’. So that’s being deliberate in terms of mindset or the belief system that I’m constructing, I’m going to be deliberate in choosing that and staying open and being mindfully attentive and practicing gratitude. Are there other things that people can do if they’re intrigued by this idea of how do I tend to my hopefulness?
Donna: Yes. I think we can always notice what part of us may be resisting. So we’re trying to tend our hopefulness. It’s like planting a seed, right? We planted the seed, now we’re going to tend it; what do we do? We water it, we fertilize it, we nurture it. And so in ourselves, how do we do that? By tending our hopefulness, we can look at what has been perhaps a self-created obstacle that we’ve put in the way. Do we tend to be pessimistic? If we tend to be pessimistic, let’s look at that. As you said before, is there a belief behind that? Was there trauma? Was there a story, was our family one that was more pessimistic than hopeful?
But to begin to explore those things within yourself, you really come to a greater understanding of what your working operating system is, then that’s part of your tending. And once we notice what part of us resists this so much? Emotionally, what part of us makes us so fearful of the hallway? Why are we so afraid when we leave what’s familiar that we will cling to it desperately, but yet it’s way past its time of being of service to us? And so to begin to just explore internally, what is that fear about, you know, where has that been anchored in my life? That’s tending as well.
Laurel: Yeah. And I think that when you’re saying do I have a more negative outlook, I think it’s important to remember that human beings, we’re wired for negativity. I mean, we have a negative bias in our brains that was evolutionary and not a bad thing. I mean, it was there so that we could determine, you know, from a survival perspective, what’s good, what’s bad, but it doesn’t have to be this self-defeating aspect of ourselves. I’m aware of the fact that as a human being, I have a negative bias. There is that velcro aspect of negativity, which only means that now I have the responsibility to lean towards positivity to nurture those positivity habits. When you’re talking about tending the garden, it’s sort of like preparing the soil.
So when I’m planting these things, they’ve got a great chance of growing – that I can be intentional about positivity habits and paying attention to the language that I use, paying attention to what I fill my mind up with, how much time I spend on social media, or if I’m on social media, what’s the nature of the commentary that I’m following there? That all of that either enriches the soil or depletes it and that we can be responsible for creating habits that foster that sense of positivity or optimism.
Donna: Absolutely. I really agree with that. And I think it’s awareness, isn’t it? We just have to become more aware almost in every moment of every day. And I think that’s why I really wanted to talk about acceptance of what is. Because there’s a lot of awareness and us just looking at what is currently. And so if we try to override that and just hope for the best, you know, hope for the future, then we’re still not ever tending our garden right now, currently, in this present moment. I think everything that you just mentioned are real factors in tending. As humans, doesn’t that help us just in our evolutionary process to know more about who we are? Because who we are is who we’re presenting to the world through our contributions and then that brings us full circle to what we’re contributing to the collective.
Are we contributing hope or are we contributing something less than which would be, you know, negative? And so I love what you said about notice how you’re tending your day, you know, do you watch constant news broadcast and all of the things that you mentioned, those are tending your garden, whether you consciously know it or if it’s going in there subconsciously. All of those are wonderful ways of having more awareness, having more awareness that who we are is what is showing up in the world.
Laurel: Yeah. That idea – what you said, that was exactly what was running through my mind, it’s who we are, is how we show up. And that those are two separate things that the way we’re choosing to show up is a reflection of who we’re being right now. And if we want to be something different, we have to show up differently and, and make choices. And I get it’s easy to get drawn into the black hole of either perpetually negative conversations or, it’s one thing to be aware of what’s happening in the world and another to be completely immersed in that conversation. We can make different choices about where our attention is going – is what I’m doing just amplifying the problem? Meaning, I’m making the problem bigger, or just talking more about it. So it’s all about the problem rather than let’s name the problem and now let’s amplify solutions or ways where I can show up around the problem rather than just more conversation about what the problem is or what’s wrong, what’s bad.
Donna: Exactly. And we can feel the difference in those two scenarios in our bodies. Can’t we? We can truly feel the resonance of that, the vibration of that when we are really being a part of what we’re hoping for, or we’re adding to the collective negativity. We feel the difference in the expansion and contraction of our physical body when we’re in those two spaces. And that’s what I meant about the hallway. We get to choose what goes on in that hallway and what we experience in the hallway.
Laurel: Yeah. So, Donna, as we wrap up, I’m curious, what are you hopeful about?
Donna: Well, I thank you. I love that question. I am hopeful about things that are even already here. And so it’s not always about future tense for me. As I look outside, you mentioned before, I live in Atlanta, it is spring in Atlanta. And if you’ve ever been to Atlanta, Georgia, in spring, it’s pure magic. It is just magical, everything blooms at once. And so we have the dogwood trees, we have the breadfruit pear trees, we have the azaleas and just so many things coming, emerging from the dead of winter, let’s say that; isn’t that hopeful? I mean, that is pure hope that each year, right at the end of winter, when we really don’t have brutal winters here, but it’s cold for southerners, then the earth brings us all this beauty, and in that beauty is hope.
And so, I love just staying present with what’s going on around me and the hopefulness and everything. Right now, I’m looking outside and I see a little chipmunk running past the pool and they’re out again, they’re not hibernating, there’s hopefulness in the evolution of life. And so, I hope that answered your question, but, for me, it’s not always future tense. It’s just being present and paying attention to what is surrounding me all the time. There’s such hope in my grandchildren, in their faces, just in the things that they’re moving forward and doing in their lives. I find hope in all of these simple pleasures to tell you the truth.
Laurel: And, you know what’s so lovely about that idea of hope in the present moment. Because, you know, we do think of hope in a future tense, and there’s nothing wrong with that idea of what we’re moving towards, but that tending to our hopefulness you know, those practices are rooted here in the present moment, which was as you’re describing that – that’s all about presence, you know, our ability to be present and this gratitude or appreciation for what is here in the present moment. And that seems like it is the way in which we tend that fertile ground for whatever it is that we’re hopeful about the future. Because the future, the future is only created out of what it is that we’re doing in the present anyways.
The future is what we’re doing now. It’s not magical, we begin to lay the framework. I think that there is a piece about hope – those fundamental belief systems that we have. I’m one of those people that I believe there is good in the world. I see that there is suffering and sometimes what looks like the face of evil and all of that, and I believe there is good in the world. It’s that old saying of Mr. Rogers, right? When you’re scared or when things are hard, look for the helpers, cause the helpers will always be there. There is something about where we choose to put our focus and then what that allows to emerge out of where our focus is.
Donna: Yes, yes. It’s as if it’s a paradox, you know, how can I stay hopeful? How can I be this abiding hope in the state of the being, as we said earlier, while there is suffering in the world? It’s the balance of both, isn’t it? It’s the paradox of being hopeful, believing there is good in the world and I’m right there with you while we see the other, show up as well. There’s also a beautiful balance there if we can accept that; if we can accept that and not resist that life is a paradox and always has been, and always will be.
Laurel: There is always the balance, the yin and the yang, the light and the dark that one has no meaning without the other.
Donna: That’s exactly right.
Laurel: Well, Donna, I am so delighted that you were able to take some time to have a conversation with me today on this topic. It’s a juicy multi-layered one and what I hope we’ve done is sparked some thoughts in listeners about perhaps conversations that they want to have with themselves or with other people and be looking for how it is that they are tending to their hopefulness right here and now, today, in this moment. So I thank you for taking the time to be here with me.
Donna: Thank you. It’s just been my pleasure and I’ve enjoyed every moment of it. And so, I am hopeful that the rest of this journey that we’re all on at this time, that we can walk into it with each step being anchored in hope. It certainly makes the journey softer and easier and more enjoyable.
Laurel: Most definitely. Okay. Listeners, if you are looking for a little more information about Donna, check out the show notes where I will leave some different links on this topic. Thank you for tuning in, as always. As I said, this wraps us for this particular season. So savour the day, dear lovely ones, no matter what it is that your day is bringing, we get one go round on this little blue planet. So just savour the ups, the downs, the everything in between; allow yourself to be present, be grateful, be hopeful, and I look forward to when our paths will cross again.
Outro: You’ve been listening to The Being & The Doing with your host, Laurel Vespi. If you liked this episode and think other people would please subscribe, rate, and give a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to tune in next week for another conversation about The Being & The Doing. Thanks for listening.